Para desvirtuadores ;)

[THIPENTAL]

Hola, dedico esta thread a todo aquel que tenga ganas de hablar algun tema fuera de lugar en cualquier otro thread y asi disminuir la desvirtuacion, es un espacio totalmente libre, hagan lo que quieran con el, pero respeten los otros thread.
La solucion a la desvirtuacion es que la gente empiese a usar los pm pero como se que da paja ya fue, usen este lugar.

BE FREE

bye

[MoaLaiSkirulais]

no entiendo pental, serias tan amable de contarme un poko mas en detalle?

desde ya muchas gracias.
atte.
mr. moto

[eneldo]

Jorge

[THIPENTAL]

la onda es que si alguien en un thread se le ocurre saltar con... no se, los pelos de su pija y ponerse a discutir con respecto a ello, utilize este lugar y que no escriba cosas que generen desvirtuacion en los thread (principalmente en "el rincon de los deprecivos" porque lo hise con fines serios y se esta transformando en un descontrol).
se entiende?? , este lugar es para el que tenga que sacarse alguna duda que no tiene que ver con el topic del thread en el que esta o porque simplemente tenga ganas de saltar con cualquiera y de este modo que no salte desvirtuando el topic sino que lo haga en este lugar que destine para ello, ok?.
gracias
bye

[MoaLaiSkirulais]

entiendo... quizas se pueda perfeccionar aun mas tu idea...

[ESPONTANEO]

Posteado por: THIPENTAL
la onda es que si alguien en un thread se le ocurre saltar con... no se, los pelos de su pija y ponerse a discutir con respecto a ello, utilize este lugar y que no escriba cosas que generen desvirtuacion en los thread (principalmente en "el rincon de los deprecivos" porque lo hise con fines serios y se esta transformando en un descontrol).
se entiende?? , este lugar es para el que tenga que sacarse alguna duda que no tiene que ver con el topic del thread en el que esta o porque simplemente tenga ganas de saltar con cualquiera y de este modo que no salte desvirtuando el topic sino que lo haga en este lugar que destine para ello, ok?.
gracias
bye

[Petronio]

toTodas las horas son GMT. La hora actual es 11:10 PM.....

[Just A Princess]

Posteado por: THIPENTAL
la onda es que si alguien en un thread se le ocurre saltar con... no se, los pelos de su pija y ponerse a discutir con respecto a ello[..]

por ke esa forma de diskriminar a las mujeres...E???
E?
E???????

[MaLe]

puta madre...yo que queria desvirtuar sobre esto...no se puede

[CcCamikaze]

en playa encontramos varios personajes de distinta naturaleza...
los mas comunes se pueden encontrar facilmente como el heladero y el pirulinero... otros mas extravagantes como el churrero, el barquillero o el vendedor de articulos de plata... aunke entre todas estas personas el mas importante es el bañero en constate vigilancia...


a ver quien lo sigue

[roan_gackt]

uh uh... alta mierda son amores =/

[non plus ultra]

Grandes poemas de pekeños autores: el de hoy carlos y el carozo por "Non Plus Ultra"

Carlos se comio una azeituna,
no un higo de una planta llamada tuna,
por lo cual le quedo en su boca un carozo,
no de un negro tamaño trozo,

Carlos se limpia su boca con una servilleta,
no que a tu abuela le babea la cajeta,
por ende le queda bien lipita,
pero en su pantalon no tiene muerta una ardillita,

Carlos se abre el cierre,
para sacar su tobul,
y biene un perro y lo lame,
cual si fuera un MOGUL

[non plus ultra]

pense que era puro chamullo lo de este topic, pero lo hiciste iwal.... te quiero ZURRA!!!

[Just A Princess]

toy leyendo esto en un cyber
con1 pepsi y tiene gusto raro
posta
no se si sere yo jaja
no kreo.. pero es gusto a no se..vieja?
ke askito
no la toy tomando con gusto

[Chaos]

Why decks with twenty majesties aren't a problem
by Adrian Sullivan (sulli_al@cslab.uwlax.edu).
This article has basicly combined the concerns of many regarding the ability to make a deck with 20ish (or more or less) S:CE cards in a NL or SPTR environment. If I didn't include an arguement, let me know, and I'll get back to it.


Terms and Environment Assumptions
All arguements are directed towards an environment of NL/GT (No Card Limits and the Golden Tenets) or the SPTR (Sensible Player's Tournament Rules).
Gangrel Run-Away is Protean S:CE, with Earth Melds and Forms of Mist.
Settite/Ventrue/Brujah/Toreador S:CE will be referred to as Majesty decks.
Giovanni S:CE is referred to as Giovanni.
Other clans and combinations that exploit S:CE are less seen, and not discussed.
A S:CE deck is considered one who uses S:CE as a primary combat card, not a combat ready Brujah deck that uses S:CE occasionally when in trouble.
Unrealistic Assumptions
In a large amount of the discussion of a S:CE deck, a number of unreasonable and unrealistic assumptions about a S:CE deck have cropped up:
When attacking a S:CE deck, the opponent still has to manuever, etc. to get to hurt an opponent. This uses up card resources at a greater rate.
In addition, one can't get in the "big hit" often.
This doesn't quite happen in practice. While Gangrel Run-Away and Ventrue Majesty do have Fortitude manuevers that may prove useful _if_ they can't S:CE, most decks will not manuever if they have a S:CE in hands. Why use up cards that might be more useful later, if they are wasted now?
Most decks tend to build up a defense against each strategy. For a S:CE deck, one has the ultimate defense against most combat, only really in trouble if someone Hidden Lurkers, etc... As a result, a deck will almost always use S:CE over other options. The only really reliable cards to fall back onto are damage prevention (Fortitude or Sideslip). Why manuever when you can S:CE? This is the main weakness of the S:CE deck... S:CE is the only thing it tends to use.

What this means is that a deck attacking a S:CE deck will not have to use its manuevers, presses, etc... There is little card waste (most often a strike card and a card to get into combat). This can be cut down by a number of combat clans, by striking lightly at first. Celeritous combat can do sneaky things, hit for hand damage (1), and if they don't majesty, celeritous strike them, hard.

This is how the "big hit" comes into things. Once an opponent is out of S:CE in hand, for reasons gotten into below, they are in trouble. If you are playing combat, and do have presses and manuever, if they are playing S:CE, their only option of getting more cards in the combat is by playing cards. If they don't have that S:CE card, since S:CE is often the only combat card they'll have, they aren't going to draw another one. You can tear an opponent to hell. Gangrel can press and press until they are done with the opponent and ready for more.

S:CE as the "penultimate" anti-combat Strategy
Many feel that the only option to stop a S:CE deck is to make an "anti-S:CE" deck, making it the NL equivalent to 4CL Malkavian S&B. This is not quite so.
All of the "anti-S:CE" cards are (arguably) useful in their own right.

Peter Bakija writes:
A counter disection of anti S:CE cards:

Immortal Grapple: [Good, but rare and needs manuevers for back up]

Rareness is an issue for IG, but the "manuevers" are not really necessary. Most S:CE decks cannot manuever. Heavily useful in any Potence combat deck.

[Fast Reaction/Hidden Lurker: Takes two minions and combat cards]. Not a very reliable or useful combo.

If one is not playing a combat deck, then this entire arguement is relatively unimportant. If one is playing a combat deck, then this card is extremely useful. Not only can the opposing minion not S:CE, but they cannot even strike. This provides the perfect opportunity for the "big hit." Extremely useful in any Auspex/Obfuscate combat deck. > Psyche: Yeah, it starts combat over, but then they get to draw another S:CE card. Doh. I've just used 2 minions and at least 3 or 4 cards. You have used 2 cards and one (untapped) minion.

You have used one minion and one card (Psyche). They need to have two S:CE ends in hand in order to not actually have to fight. This is another way to "prime the pump" by either have this minion or the next one nearly ready to jump down the throat of a Methuselah with 2 less S:CE. Useful in any Celeritous combat deck.

These cards are useful, but so are the other, easier options to get rid of a S:CEnding Methuselah: Forcing the hand. If a Meth. is constantly using S:CE, these cards are leaving their hand. Let's look at how much of a deck would need to be S:CE to be constantly ready, on average:

# combat per
table rotation % S:CE in deck
1 ~14.3%
2 25%
3 ~33.3%
4 40%
5 ~45.5%
6 50%

When that S:CE is not in hand, if combat occurs the S:CEnder is in deep trouble. Not only is this combat a doomed one, but any other combats until they can cycle cards.
The Gangrel is touted as defenseless to the S:CE deck. While they are perhaps the worst hit, they have many options, as Wyatt Cheng and Alec Habig(??) wrote. Since S:CE decks are not likely to manuever, the Gangrel will only be "wasting" its get into combat card in return for one S:CE card. Using Haven Uncovered's and light intercept (from Raven Spies and Cat's Guidance) will keep the S:CE deck under constant attack at the cost of a few cards useful in any context and absolutely no wasted cards. The moment a Gangrel deck gets can be taken advantage of wonderfully with presses and a final Wolf Claws.

Combat encompasses one-third of the "major strategies" in Jyhad (along with bleed and vote). As such, most "good decks" prepare defenses for each of these three main strategies. Good players realize that they must keep their opponents possible defenses to their own strategy in mind when creating a deck. For Malk S&B, one must realize that someone might have a lot of permanent intercept, and thus throw in Seductions. For a combat deck, one must realize that there might be celeritous combat, agg combat (from Tremere/Gangrel), or Run-Away combat. One should always act accordingly. In making a combat deck that you feel could be succeptable to S:CE, throw in more Haven Uncovered/Bloodhunts/Archons than Bum's Rushes. If you have access from your disciplines to the other anti-S:CE cards, throw in a few or many, depending on how well they fit in with the total action of your deck. After all, they all have uses in their own right.

S:CE as a "winner" deck
This complaint is that the good deck with S:CE as combat defense would be a huge problem. I ask to be shown one.
In order to have a reliable defense against a combat deck that would kill them, they need a large number of S:CE (see above). If they have a S&B predator they need a lot of deflections/auspex reduction. If they have a political adversary, they need political power. Simply put, the sheer amount of space that the S:CE cards are needed to be reliable bog down the deck so that it cannot do anything else as well as another deck could. It cannot bleed as well, vote as well, or do anything else as well or as reliably as another, similar deck could.

This is basicly the problem with all focused decks. They gain strengths in one area (combat avoidance, for example) at the expense of everything else in their deck.

A number of decks can take care of a heavily S:CE. My own decks (for the most part, all having at least decent "generic" defenses):

Brujah Combat: 4 Archon's, 2 BloodHunts, 4 Haven Uncovered, 6 Bum's Rush, 6 Psych. This deck has consistently beaten to hell S:CE decks by the principals above: Forcing the Hand, and Hitting Hard.
"Baiting the Enemy": A Nos/Malk combat deck based on 7 Hidden Lurker/8 Fast Reaction. Again, it slaughters a S:CE deck, and is highly useful against other decks. Note that this deck was made to beat up other combat decks, not S:CE decks.
Giovanni Diablerie: Thoughts Betrayed backed up by permanents ends most S:CEnders day. 4 Carlotta Giovannis to ensure Carlotta being able to return the combo to hand. The Thoughts Betrayed are useful against nearly any combatant (except another permanent driven one).
"Sowing Dissensions Seeds": I have 4 Haven and 6 Bloodhunts. I don't fight, but everyone else does. If a S:CE predator upon me, I block and let them S:CE. If I have one as my prey, they had better have intercept, or I'll offensively vote them to death.
Malk S&B: As predator to the S:CE deck, that deck is likely in trouble, as its S:CE will clog its hand.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This whole idea of the S:CE deck being "killer" is somewhat laughable. I have never seen a killer deck. The S:CEnder will have to make a good deck to compete, but a good deck will have problems with its sheer variety of prey/predators. Even among "generic" defenses (combat, vote, bleed), a deck that holds even 20% of its cards as S:CE (insufficient to be reliable against a deck that will be holding onto its combat cards against a S:CEnder), will have to give up somewhere, either on defense or offense. Those choices are costly.
If a S:CEnd deck isn't winning too much, why consider it a problem? The idea of players not playing to win is a far different arguement than S:CE. If the problem is boredom, see below.

20 S:CE as a bore
Well, of course. But boredom is never a good arguement. A boring deck can be made with no more than 3 copies of any particular card. 20 or so majesties may be boring, but how much more so than 3 threats, conditionings, bondings, G:TUs, Computer Hacking, Kine Dominance, Lost in Crowds, Faceless Night, etc. Or, how much more so than 6 KRC, 6 Cons. Agitation, 6 Sabbat Threat, 6 etc. etc.
Anyone can make a boring deck in virtually any environment (say above 3CL).


Other points
Peter Bajika writes:
Even without repeat actions, a friend plays a nightmare bleed deck that relies on Form of Mist to S:CE and then continue to stealth bleed to boot. Urk. The Gangrel simply can't muster up enough Intercept with 1 Aid from Cats and possibly some permanents to block this foolishness, and can't kill them, as they are packed with S:CE. Sad.
Under Golden Tenets, it is assumed that Form of Mist at Superior is played as an action modifier. After all, you are modifying the action. That should solve that problem. Under the SPTR, a clause to make all cards that modify actions be played as action modifiers has yet to be released to the supporters (along with other proposed changes) for their decision, but it should soon be official SPTR stance.

Peter Bajika writes:
Malcom, the main point of this thread (well my main point, anyway) is not that a deck with 20 Majesties can't be beaten, but that a deck that is 25% Majesties and 75% something else will completely nullify a combat deck that is 100% combat, and a combat deck more or less needs to be 100% combat to be effective because combat decks are far more card/combo dependant that most other deck designs.

See the above. Note that pretty much any 100% combat deck will be by any number of decks. A 100% anything deck is not robust and doesn't typically deserve to win if it doesn't put into consideration counters to its counters. Remember, combat decks can use the principals of Forcing the Hand, and Hitting Hard, simply due to the way that S:CE keeps combat cards in the hand of the combat deck. Any 100% combat deck had better have some way of dealing with its counter (S:CE), whether it be simply more Haven Uncovered/Bloodhunt/Archon or other "permanent" combat cards or S:CE "hosers".

I, also, in the face of that sort (10 DC, 10 MisD, 30 Cond) cheese would grab some wine and crackers, and announce "It's Fiddler Crab season and I am a Fiddler Crab. Shoot Me! Shoot Me!" until I was dead, and then join the loser table :-)

Under SPTR or NL/GT I don't see the above deck winning at any table, unless it got extremely lucky.

Robert Goudie wrote:
While I don't dispute your statement that a deck with 20 majesties in it will rarely win, I believe that it's a problem that these decks even exist.

Why? If a player is not playing to win, that is a problem in-and-of itself. If they are, they will soon play something else that will win more often.

I wrote: The clans with the problems (Gangrel, Ravnos, and Ventrue) are not too badly hit. Ravnos and Ventrue are not big fighters anyway, and both kill in ways not dealing with combat. The Gangrel can defensively use Rotschreck. James Hamblin wrote:
Well, first of all, some clans just can't do everything. I mean, why would a Ventrue deck be worried about their opponent playing S:CE? They are the ones who want to use it themselves to avoid getting killed.